Apr13
“And the Word became flesh”.
This verse from John chapter 1 has many people convinced John is claiming that Jesus is the Word, and therefore God Almighty Himself; in the flesh. As Baha’is, we believe what Baha’u'llah reveals about a “Progressive Revelation” coming from the same One, True, Invisible God. He teaches that God has revealed Himself through 9 different persons throughout the last 6,000 years in what he terms a “Progressive Revelation”. But that none of these ones who bring a revelation are God Himself, but instead are revealing God’s Will.
So which is true? The Apostle John is correct, and of course Baha’u'llah is correct. It’s the interpretation of what John meant that is at odds with reality. Jesus is not God; Jesus is not the Word. The disconnect happens when one (or millions) assumes that the “Word” and Jesus are one and the same. It doesn’t say that. What it says is “the Word was with God, and the Word was God” (John 1:1). Later in verse 14 it states “and the Word became flesh and dwelt among us full of grace and truth.”. That’s what John said specifically, so let’s not add or take away from this for the sake of accuracy. If you look further down the chapter he continues in verse 17: “grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”. So John describes the Word as “grace and truth”; then he states this “came through Jesus Christ”. So the Word “dwelt” in and “came through” Jesus Christ. See? The Word, which is God, dwelt in and was revealed through Jesus Christ which is in accord with Baha’u'llah’s teaching about Progressive Revelations.
Furthermore, in verse 18 John state: “Noone has ever seen God. The only Son…he has made him known”. So Jesus can’t be God, because many saw him, right? But “he has made (God/the Word) known”. This again is exactly what Baha’u'llah teachs. This Progressive Revelation has come through many teachers, for the stated purpose of making God’s will known to the people.
The Greek translation for “the Word” is LOGOS. Logos literally means ‘thoughts expressed in words’. So another way to state what John is saying would be to say that God’s Thoughts came and dwelt with us in Jesus who in turn expressed these Thoughts in words so they could be made known.
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9:14 am on September 30, 2007
my friend, i read it. no one has seen, God’s true glorious form. when it said, no one has seen God, it is true. no one has seen him in his true glory. if i put a mask on, and come to you, you will see the mask, not me. one day, i come to you, you dont know me, because now i dont have a mask. but in reality, you have met me before. get it. Christ Jesus was like a mask. so yes, no one has seen God in his true form, glory. you must understand, the human Jesus was God in the flesh, but it was not God’s true form. that is why Jesus said, restore unto me the glory that i had with you in heaven, before the world was. concerning the Word. john said, and the word was made by him, he was in the world. and the world knew him not. who was in the world, and the world knew him not, and who created the world. JESUS. the old testament was written in hebrew. do you know the hebrew word for God? it is elohim. that is plural, which means God’s. know i’m not saying there are 2 or more God’s. i’m saying exactly what Jesus said, I and the Father are ONE. in the beginning God’s created the heaven and the earth. aka, father, son, holy spirit. one God. one union, always together, forever. that is the one true God. there is a verse that says: the lord our God is one lord. that in hebrew is. the Lord our God’s is one Lord. that is aka, the GodHead, aka Trinity. so there you have my comment.
11:45 am on September 30, 2007
Yes sir, I get it. I get that you choose your own interpolations of scripture over what the Bible actually say. You will not find any Baha’is being so careless and disrespectful of the written word of God. Your response has not one verse to back up your allegations. Don’t you have a Bible to provide verses we can discuss? We don’t need 2nd grade level analogies to get what you’re saying. Just stick to actual verses, and I’m sure I can keep up.
First of all, like I said in the posting, the greek word for “the Word” is Logos which literally meanins “thoughts expressed in Words”. According to these verses, the Word came through Jesus; not that Jesus was the Word. You haven’t attempted to verify your idea that Jesus is the Word. According to John, the word is the thoughts of God, and “Jesus made him know” when they “came through” him. In other words, the thoughts of God were unknown until they came to us through Jesus. See? Lets address this key point before going off on these tangents you’ve presented.
1:33 pm on September 30, 2007
hi, my friend. i looked up the word logos. it simply means, word. that does not prove that jesus wasnt the word. that just simply means, that he is the word, and God used the word, to bring the word. how did God bring the world into existance? all he did was speak it, in to existence. thats why it says, the world was made by him/word/jesus. thru jesus, God spoke the world into existance. one question for you. according to you, bahaulla is the second coming, correct? so, how about the people that were before baha? what if they thought the way i do, because before baha, people only had the bible. so my point is this., that does not mean that people that did not wait for someone like baha, doent mean they are not saved, just because they believe that christ would come in a cloud. alsoabout islam. do you believe christ was crusified, and died, and rose, and went to heaven? well muslims dont believe that, so how could they be a religion from God?
5:56 pm on September 30, 2007
If Christians believe that Jesus is the only Word of God then it will be difficult to convince them about Progressive Revelation which for me explains the unity of religions. It is a perspective revealed and presented by Baha’u'llah (WORD) to explain how God educates the peoples of the Earth. God has provided graciously and lovingly to humanity many Manifestations of Himself (the WORD) over time to foster and guide the growth and civilization of humankind. The Holy Spirit of the Manifestation (Word) has influence to stir the spirit of humankind to excel and unite and be civilized. Moses, Jesus, Mohammed, Krishna, Buddha brought peace and light to the believers of the One Invisible God. For me Baha’u'llah is the most recent Manifestation to be so for our age. As it took hundreds of years for Jesus’ Word to flourish in the Roman times. In due time Baha’u'llah’s Word will do and be the same in our age. I choose not to get hung up on the stories and semantics as told about each Manifestation, but rather judge Them and Word by Their fruits. What good did They leave to humankind, civilization? In our world today the religions are clashing because of mankinds attachment to their own individual faiths. If you reflect on each of the religions of God, They give in due time benevolence, love, and peace to the believers. God, the timeless Word, and the Holy Spirit give us true life, truth, and light. Religion is not static, but is progressive and timeless. It periodically needs to be renewed and refreshed. The Word will always come to us in the flesh. It is the nature of God to do so. God is Glorious! If we could only know the Mind of God. WoW! The Truth is out there!
10:51 pm on September 30, 2007
Al C, what a beautiful way to express that. I like the way you think. I hope you find cause to hang out here more often; you’re most welcome.
razzerelli, I’m not sure where you “looked up” what the greek word Logos means, but from Strong’s Concordance with regards to John’s usage we get “the Divine Expression” and also “something said (including the thought)” which is another way of saying what I wrote it means, a thought expressed in words; in this case the Divine Thoughts expressed through Jesus’ words. In other words, he’s explained that this is the Word of God, His thoughts being expressed in Words which “came through Jesus” (v.17). I have presented a synopsis of the whole chapter which seen in context and in its entirety it’s clear that the idea that Jesus is the Word in this chapter is not accurate. The Word, which was God, and through which all things were made, “dwelt in” Jesus who expressed this thought of God for us to understand. It doesn’t say Jesus was the word, nor imply it if you read the whole chapter. Moreover, to be quite explicit John says “Noone has ever seen God. The only Son…he has made him known” (v.18). Your mask analogy doesn’t fit the bill here, taking everything into context, and not isolating sentences. John goes on to say that although no one’s seen Him, Jesus has come to make him known by expressing God’s Thoughts to us through words.
One can’t honestly claim John is saying otherwise without adding meaning and twisting around what’s already explicit. If anyone will choose to add meaning to these explicit verses that are not already there, then it becomes possible to take unimaginable liberties with these truths, and cause them to mean whatever they want; like here where razzerelli is making one of God’s servants the Almighty in the flesh. If that it the case, we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m going with what John stated, and adding nothing more and taking away not a syllable. Cheers.
11:11 pm on September 30, 2007
razz, as far as your other questions go, the baha’i beliefs about the resurrection are elaborated upon here and the reasons we don’t believe he’s was God incarnate, but a Divine Messenger are explained in Jesus’ own words in this post. Please be sure to back up your claims with biblical verses so no one thinks you’re just making things up. We like to, and encourage folks to investigate these claims with their own eyes which is why we always include verse numbers from both the Bible and Koran.
I’m not sure your conclusion about Muslims is accurate. Muslims believe in Jesus. Who’s been telling you these lies? Can you quote a source for such a broad banishing statement? BTW, what make you think those things you mentioned are qualifiers to make something “a religion from God”? I don’t get your point, but why don’t you just watch this video about the resurrection and we can take it from there.
7:59 am on October 01, 2007
hi jeff. i looked up the word sperm. the greek language does not even have a word for sperm. spermos simply means seed. also i have many muslim friends who say that in the quran it says, that it appeared the jesus died, but in fact they say it was not even him on the cross.
8:01 am on October 01, 2007
jeff, read genesis chapter 18. it shows the trinity.
8:20 am on October 01, 2007
please explain when jesus said, before abraham was I AM. the jews wanted to kill him, for making himself equal with God. dont you think the jews, of all people, would know that someone was implying to be God? the jews were the ones that knew what that phrase meant. i, believeing in the trinity, am very easily able to explain when jesus said, the father is greater than I. if you believe in the trinity, you would understand that, the father, son, holy spirit, are the ONE GOD. they do not exist without each other. therefore always one. when jesus said the father is greater, he meant this. jesus gave up all athority for the soul purpose of doing what he came to do. so yes the father is greater, because christ came to suffer. but, he than was given all power on heaven and earth, once again. jesus said, restore unto me the glory that i had with you in heaven, before the world was. a triangle has 3 points, but it is one triangle. christ was davids son ACCORDING to the flesh. that means, according to the flesh, the flesh believed he was of david. why could God not have made mary pregnant(with power not sex) with sperm that is of david(for God can do all things and made all things) and yet still be a virgin. that is why the bible says that joseph did not know her until jesus was born, this means he did not have sex with her, until his birth. so he could not be the father. God simply made her concieve with sperm that he made(for he makes all things) and therefore is called the son of david. david called jesus lord, how therefore could he be his son. jesus mentioned this.
8:48 pm on October 02, 2007
razzarelli, what are you looking these words up in? I’m using a Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance. Look up the word in the exact verse, and you get the original Greek or Hebrew. Whatever source you’re using isn’t a Bible Concordance obviously. In Strong’s for Roman’s 1:3 the word “seed” translates into Greek: “sperma -something sown, i.e. seed (including male sperm); by impl. offspring- issue, seed”.
So to answer your question, seed means sperm in the case I quoted “who was made of the seed [SPERM] of David according to the flesh, and DECLARED son of God according to the spirit.” -Romans 1:3
We never EVER have denied Mary was a virgin. The Bible says she was. But virgins getting pregnant is a common occurance, even today. It also says Jesus was a descendant of David’s, and traces his genealogy back to him through “his father Joseph”. So somehow one of Joseph’s sperm impregnated her during their betrothal while they were eating, sleeping, and living together for that one year. They hadn’t consummated yet, but she got pregnant from his sperm nonetheless. Otherwise he’s not a Christ, for Christ/Messiah lit. means he’s a male descendant of Davids. It says he’s “made of the seed [sperma in Greek] of David according to the flesh, but declared son of God according to the Spirit…” (Romans 1:3), so why Christians deny his lineage is baffling. Mary was not from David, but of the tribe of Levi. Matthew and Luke both start off giving his descent to David through “his father Joseph”. Thats what it says. God is not a descendant of David’s, so if God impregnated Mary, the he wasn’t a Christ.
You can add to what’s explicit and make up your own interpolations like the bogus “God can do anything”, etc., but the Bible is clear on this one. He’s a male sperm descendant of David through “his father Joseph”. Matthew and Luke both contradict your notion that God impregnated Mary; they clearly state he’s a descendant of David’s through Joseph; and Paul negates the adoption theory in Romans 1:3. The Trinity is also a bogus concept. It’s not scriptural, and to extract this from scripture one must add meaning that’s not inherent in any verses. The word is not in the Bible, nor is the concept. It’s man made, just like your other notions. If you would please bother to read this post regarding Jesus’ own words denying he’s God, we can take up that issue in that particular post. One can’t pick and choose to accept some verses, and deny others. When seen in their full context, it’s clear these concepts of yours are not based on scripture.
If you will deny these explanations, and refuse to at least examine what I’m presenting, I’m afraid we may soon find ourselves at crossroads where we’ll have to agree to disagree. I’m doing my part in sharing with you what we believe about these things, but as your interpretations of the Bible involve adding to what’s not explicit, I’m afraid it’s impossible to reason with that sort of thing. You may find a broader understanding of these things if you’d take a moment to peruse the articles on this blog site, as well as those on our sister-site http://www.bupc.org for deeper explanations.
7:35 am on October 03, 2007
Raz, I don’t see how Gen 18 is connected to the trinity. It doesn’t mention the trinity, the figures with the lord are only referred to as men and then during the conversation with the Lord they are sent off to Sodom to see to the events there. Where is the trinity? The concept of the trinity as far as I am aware is from the Babylonian and extends from the execution of Nimrod for teaching the people of God that they didn’t have to obey God and the behavior of his wife Semiramis afterwards who said that Nimrod was a god and that her son was the incarnation of the father and made herself a part of that trinity as the “holy mother”. Go http://www.alaska.net/~peace/trinity.htm to see the rest of the story.
7:43 am on October 03, 2007
hello, for his sperm to have gotten her pregnant, he must of had intercourse with her. a virgin is a person who has never had sex. EVER.
7:49 am on October 03, 2007
i think i will end it here. i know your belief is false for the simple fact that you believe, all major religions are from God. just the simple fact that, islam has a totally different heaven(one with sex and all kinds of nasty thing) then the one in the bible, were sex is not a part of it, but worship of God forever. no true religion of God, would allow us to believe that these false religions like islam, are from GOD. for this simple fact, I KNOW, that your faith is false, for anyone who will lead a believer to believe in false religions, is also a false teacher.
10:08 am on October 03, 2007
whats up jeff? ever read galatians 3: 26,27,28,29?
it reads: 26:for ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27:for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put onChirst.
28:there is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is either male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
29:and if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.
do you understand that jeff? so according to you this would probably mean that all the believers are sperm desendants of Abraham thru Christ. lol. please understand, your belief.
so just because the word seed is there, it does not mean, literal sperm. understand. we are seeds of Christ thru our faith, not SPERM. lol.
11:37 am on October 03, 2007
razz, you seem so confused to such a great degree that it’s hard to know where to begin. How do you not know that virgins can get pregnant? It’s a common occurrence even today. We don’t deny that she was virgin, as I’ve explained, but the immaculate conception which is not supported scripturally. Neither do we deny he’s a Christ/Messiah, descended from David through “his father Joseph”. Both these points are clear in the Bible.
Your confusion about Islam can easily be cleared up with easily obtained guidance. I wish you would show a greater interest in investigating the things I’ve shown you so far, and it would make clearing up your confusion about Islam a bit easier. They don’t believe these silly things; those things have no basis in true Islam. They worship the same Creator that sent Moses and Jesus; and they believe in both of them too.
As far as Galatians goes, why are you muddying the waters? Romans 1 is specifically about Christ’s spiritual and physical natures. He specifically says he’s “physically from the seed of David, and DECLARED son of God according to the Spirit…”. That is a clear explanation of the two natures of the person Jesus was: he’s physical from David, and spiritually the son of God. Galatians 3 is an entirely different dissertation about our spiritual nature when we accept Christ. How the Jews were no longer the only chosen ones, and that by accepting Jesus both Gentiles and Jews would spiritually be one, and all children of Abraham. What’s so LOL about that? You’re clearly not interested in an intelligent conversation or the truth, for you haven’t a grasp on either.
If you want to continue discussing these matters, then I suggest closing off this thread, as we’re no longer discussing the topic at hand. If you’d like to comment elsewhere on the blog on topics you’ve raised, like on Muslim view of Anti-Christ, or to go deeper into the Mythical Jesus topic, let’s take them there. This post was about John 1, yet we seem to be discussing every other topic but that. There isn’t much more to say here without repeating ourselves.
3:35 pm on October 03, 2007
As far as i know Jesus is the only Manifestation of God to not leave or write a book about His ministry. Everything about Him is left to man to ponder and interpret His Words. St Paul makes the connection of Jesus as descendant of King David. Paul truly understood the connection of Jesus being a Christ in that regard. As John indicates the Word of God through Jesus was in the flesh. His spiritual ministry brought to people a way to overcome and resist the harsh Roman rule through divine love. Jesus’ message of love eventually changed the Romans to appreciate this one invisible God concept, and to flourish in Christianity. We must not forget that the Christians were tormented, but the message of Jesus changed the course of civilization during that time. Jesus’ message has since lost its meaning today. As Moses saved the Jews from oppression in Egypt. As Mohammed united a thousand warring tribes to live peacefully on the Arabian peninsula. In due time these religions eventually clashed in the Middle East through various periods in human history and even today. These religions of God didn’t see their connection to each other. Each religion did not understand the others until Baha’u'llah message shed light on the Unity of religions. How people believe today is indicative of religious prejudices of each other. Baha’is from around the world have recognized their previous religious preferences or persuasions are not lost in their current beliefs but rather intensified having known Baha’u'llah’s Word. He as all Manifestation of Gods are the ‘Word became flesh’. His message is unity as all previous Manifestations of God and He is a descendant of King David as well making Him the 2nd Christ. In due time we will graduate to the new World, God’s Kingdom, God’s Will for us. Today we are seeing man’s will in evidence not God’s. It is all wrong, and we will suffer a price for our fall from grace, but know as promised God’s Will is going to win in the end. For me Baha’u'llah’s Word is truth for this age. It makes sense to me. It is truly Judgement Day, and no nation or people should feel proud thinking they know it all. God is Logical not illogical. So interpretation of the Word is vital, it is our survival, it is our belief system. The stories we may read and hear may not in fact be true. As I can not convince people to believe in Progressive Revelation, but it is certainly very logical to me. God is Alive and Well and has not deserted us. Baha’u'llah gives me great hope that our species will survive these confusing times even though we witness our leaders confused in their weapons of mass deception. The Truth, the Way, the Life is lost as the religions clash once again. Jesus message is Love. Baha’u'llah message is Justice. Heaven on Earth is our future though not without turmoil. We are continuing to grow up and i am no exception. We are just humans trying to understand the Creator, we are made in His image. We must not judge each other in our private search for truth. We must seek with an open mind for with God all is possible. God is positive energy, and we must feed off of it. Find Peace and don’t leave this World without it. As Baha’u'llah says ‘the Earth is but One country and Mankind its citizens’.. I couldn’t have said it any better myself. Peace!!
9:14 pm on October 03, 2007
Razarelli said: “I think I will end it here. i know your belief is false for the simple fact that you believe, all major religions are from God. just the simple fact that, islam has a totally different heaven(one with sex and all kinds of nasty thing) then the one in the bible, were sex is not a part of it, but worship of God forever. no true religion of God, would allow us to believe that these false religions like islam, are from GOD. for this simple fact, I KNOW, that your faith is false, for anyone who will lead a believer to believe in false religions, is also a false teacher.”
With all this talk about false religions and teachers I think I would like to see some proof of what you say. Too often people of real merit have been excoriated and rejected because someone in power could make unfounded but scathing remarks about them that were not in the least bit true but yet were found acceptable to the less astute hearer because of the socially exalted position of the speaker.
Raz, you could show that your thoughts on this subject have merit by providing proof and not resorting to the same strategy the Jews used to persecute your saviour, Christ.
I look forward to hearing more from you.
5:50 pm on September 25, 2009
May god bless you all in the name is jesus christ. God himself said in Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. friends i am not here to battle or bash anyone if i did i apoligise i want to exort you to help us all understand the truth where their is a need of light. with a bashing or prideful or angry spirit Gods spirit wont abide in you to show you the truth.
Raz your a strong believer and i love you in the name is jesus but show more patience and love most importantly you should respect jeff if you want to converse. Do so in love, patience with the words of god supported by the bible or you really cant defend your case. Though many of the ideas you brought was right concerning god doesnt believe in different religions because he is a jealous god (Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,.)Deut 5:9.Why has did god make his main covenents with Abraham and isaic and jacob? God wants to be identified by a people so others can see his glory through his people and other nations can be blessed through abraham, so the other religions during those times including son not of promise ishmael blessed but DID NOT make a covenent with them. GOD WAS TRYING TO SHOW THE WORLD THAT I ONLY DELIGHT IN MY PEOPLE (PEOPLE WHO FOLLOWS MY WILL rightousness,ways and truth not by mouth only but in action) he is so serious about his identity on earth that he even punishes isreal for following fulse gods and drinking the wine(wisdom knowlege,truth) of other nations.he shows it several other times in the bible if you want to kno where just IM me.
the trinity is not so. God is not jesus. jesus is the the thoughts and will of god expressed in gods power to create and is the voice of god to mankind and throu mankind by his people(JEWS) truth in words until his he stopped speaking tto the jews because they rebelled to much infront of him rebelling is truth and laws. This is why john said what he said. the word is of god but not god.the word and god are one because they believe in one truth in everything (the same way he wants the body of christ to believe in one truth and have one spirit (same knowledge in truth and lifestyle and ambitions) but because of mans pride heart which thinks he is rich in spirit god wont visit him soon as a man feels he knows all things).The holy spirit is the manifistation of Gods truth and righteousness in actions, reactions, thoughts words,which only lives in the host of a human that accepts his beliefs, principles, testemony of jesus, most importantly understand that the whole that the bible is inspired by god expressed by his holy spirit(jesus) to whom he has chosen called and his elect that can understand gods righteousness to believe and perform it.its the accepting of the Holy spirit (which is the understanding of gods righteousness,principles,wisdom and attitude)that changes a person by dropping there personality and putting on gods way of spirit ONLY BY HIS HOLY INSPIRED WORD wwhich is the holy bible.